Sbs Trade Sales

[Sidewinder]

David,

Can you please confirm the width on your 24s enclosure, it is in your data as 285 wide, I suspect it is 485 wide?

Thanks.

 

[SBS Dave]

Hi Steptoe,

No, I don't normally do metal clad. I used to stock a few MK ones, but I stopped doing them, due to lack of demand. I have 2 x 8-module MK metalclads in stock.

What I was illustrating was that you can leave an enclosure of any make in place, if it is in good condition and just replace the guts.

Hi Sidewinder,

I haven't decided on the ENC-24S yet, because it is a double decker, consisting of 2 x 12-module DIN rails. The dimensions are correct and you will see that is 340mm high, rather than the 215mm or 235mm boards.The sample was damaged in shipping and I am awaiting a replacement. There are 2 x neutral/earth bars, one at the top and on at the bottom, with no facility to mount it half way, between the 2 DIN rails. If you or anybody is interested, let me know and I will post a photo of it.

They are all IP65 and the simple back box can be drilled, cut and slotted on all 4 sides and with knockouts on all sides for SWA and conduit fixings. If you think that the earth bar at the bottom would sometimes be an inconvenience, I am working on a split earth bar, with part of it at the top left or top right corner of the box. The attached photo is a prototype and I would welcome opinions on this feature.

SBS Dave

 

[Sidewinder]

OK Dave, if I go that way it may be for the 18 way then, I'll check the sizes as soon as I can.

I "need" to change 2 boards out before the end of this month, but, I'm not sure if I can stretch to the cash flow so I may have to put the client off until next month due to a very BIG client paying me £7k5 short!!!

P1553d off or what!

 

[steptoe]

ENC-9S with RCBs & side earth bar.JPG

Hi Steptoe,

No, I don't normally do metal clad. I used to stock a few MK ones, but I stopped doing them, due to lack of demand. I have 2 x 8-module MK metalclads in stock.

What I was illustrating was that you can leave an enclosure of any make in place, if it is in good condition and just replace the guts.

Hi Sidewinder,

I haven't decided on the ENC-24S yet, because it is a double decker, consisting of 2 x 12-module DIN rails. The dimensions are correct and you will see that is 340mm high, rather than the 215mm or 235mm boards.The sample was damaged in shipping and I am awaiting a replacement. There are 2 x neutral/earth bars, one at the top and on at the bottom, with no facility to mount it half way, between the 2 DIN rails. If you or anybody is interested, let me know and I will post a photo of it.

They are all IP65 and the simple back box can be drilled, cut and slotted on all 4 sides and with knockouts on all sides for SWA and conduit fixings. If you think that the earth bar at the bottom would sometimes be an inconvenience, I am working on a split earth bar, with part of it at the top left or top right corner of the box. The attached photo is a prototype and I would welcome opinions on this feature.

SBS Dave

that would be 6ways & 1 main switch,

I'll e.mail you regarding this.

I dont normally go for MK, but it is after all only a box. 

 

[Bacon]

Do you stock or you able to obtain any 63a Compact RCBO?

As i may be able to get an order for 46x 32a Compact RCBO's

And 2X63a Compact RCBO's

If so could you PM a price for all of these please.

 

[SBS Dave]

Hi Sidewinder,
My new range won't be available until the end of April, but I do have the MK 21-module, 19-way boards in stock. Not sure i can help with your cash flow problem, but I am open to suggestions. E-mail me if you want to discuss it.

Hi Steptoe,
If the MK 8-mod, 6-way metal back box boards are OK for you, I will do you a good deal on them. The MK products are good quality, so there shouldn't be a problem. I'll put them on one side and wait for you to get back to me

 

 

[OnOff]

ENC-9S with RCBs & side earth bar.JPG

If you think that the earth bar at the bottom would sometimes be an inconvenience, I am working on a split earth bar, with part of it at the top left or top right corner of the box. The attached photo is a prototype and I would welcome opinions on this feature.

SBS Dave

One could argue that the earth bar at the bottom guards to some extent against someone "forgetting" to tighten a terminal properly in that gravity, natural spring action keeps it in place and against the earth bar - even if it breaks there's a small chance it will spring against the earth bar. I've come across this "case for" where there's been discussions as to which way up to fit standard "Appleby" etc 1G, 2G back boxes etc and the move away from nice, solid brass terminals in them to those God awful over-size, part of the box, pressing arrangements. Not of course that anyone would forget to tighten terminals........

The enclosure prices I think are very reasonable. Would it not be another selling point to give multiple options within the moulding to mount top, bottom, left OR right for the small extra cost of adding some tapped bosses in the plastic? Let's face it the Compact/DP/Single Module RCBO's look to be brilliant pieces of kit and people will be spreading the word, add to it, "And their enclosures are THAT flexible!". It would pay surely to have any enclosure you make "friendly" towards EITHER the compact or standard RCBOs. Nothing worse than hearing about a product and someone saying, "They're great BUT it would be good if they had added/included/thought of......".

Just my humble opinion!

 

[SBS Dave]

Hi Bacon,

The short answer is no, the maximum size being 40A. It is the very compactness of the device that limits its current size.

See my post entitled "Dp Rcbo's"

The price for 46 CRBs would be 46 x 13 = £598.00 less 10% = £538.20 + £13.80 p & p + VAT.

The main problem would be delivery for that quantity, which is more than I have in stock. We would be talking 4 weeks lead time.

If, after all that, there is still a chance of the order, let me know urgently, so that I can taking action to get more in stock.

David

 

[SBS Dave]

Hi OnOff,

Thanks for your feedback, regarding the earth bar position. I did say that the range wasn't perfect, but trying to modify the injection moulding for the enclosure, which is made in China, would cost 1,000's of pounds, so the best I can offer is stick-on / screw-on terminal strpis. The mock up shown can be placed on the side left as shown or on the side right for R/H Main Switch. They could also be positioned top left and top right, as I think you are suggesting, but it would depend on how far to the left or right you place the main switch. On the bigger boards, the terminal strip would overlap the first few Standard RCBOs. This split terminal idea is still in its infancy, as indeed is the gamble of bringing in a range of boards, in which no one may be interested. That's why feedback is important.

Regarding "friendly", they are friendly towards Compacts and more friendly than top neutral/earth bars types, currently on the UK market.

Of course, all this is academic if you use Compacts, as the standard earth terminal bar at the top is OK anyway.

David

 

[ProDave]

What I was illustrating was that you can leave an enclosure of any make in place, if it is in good condition and just replace the guts.

SBS Dave

[devils advocate]

Doesn't that advice go against the original manufacturers advice of only fit their products into their enclosure?

So doesn't comply with BS7671?

Or do you counter that by issuing your own manufacturers instructions that state your compact rcbo's can be mounted in ANY enclosure?

[/devils advocate]

On a related subject, all this talk of neutral bar positioning.  Pardon me, but a board consisting entirely of compact rcbo's does not need a neutral bar at all does it?

 

[OnOff]

[devils advocate]

Doesn't that advice go against the original manufacturers advice of only fit their products into their enclosure?

So doesn't comply with BS7671?

Or do you counter that by issuing your own manufacturers instructions that state your compact rcbo's can be mounted in ANY enclosure?

[/devils advocate]

On a related subject, all this talk of neutral bar positioning.  Pardon me, but a board consisting entirely of compact rcbo's does not need a neutral bar at all does it?

Erm....I was talking about the EARTH bar?  :lol:  

 

[SBS Dave]

Hi ProDave,

A Devil's Advocate usually poses questions that they feel they already know the answers to,

If you feel it is wrong to go against a "manufacturer's " advice, then don't do it and fit their Compact 1-module, 2-pole RCBO into their board.

Most of the manufacturers you refer to, are not manufacturers at all, only Brand Owners, with their enclosures and devices being sold under other Brand Names.

If you feel the resulting PTTA doesn't comply with BS7671, then who I am I to convince you otherwise? Your interpretation of BS7671 is as equally valid as mine.

As it happens, I do have a Certificate of Compliance, based on strong advice given by the OEM, with one Company supplying all my equipment, carrying the Brand SBS, which stands for Stansfield Business Services..

I believe OnOff answered your question on the various earth / neutral bar combinations.

Finally ProDave, have you ever fitted a device into an enclosure, where the device brand was different from the enclosure brand or even the other device brands??

SBS Dave

 

[ProDave]

Sorry I thought I was making myself clear by the devils advocate bit.

Personally I will fit any make of mcb, rcbo etc into any make of board, as long as it fits properly, and I have found example where the "wrong" make fits better than the "right" make.

And yes I recognise that most different makes of CU are made up from the same parts, which is another reason I personally don't believe in this following manufacturers instructions is always the best thing to do.

So I would have no issue fitting your kit into a "wrong" make of enclosure, and I'm looking forward to the day I find a customer willing to have one of these boards so I can try it out.

But there was a serious element to the question, and that is BS7671 says we must follow manufacturers instructions. So perhaps you should be writing some instructions to tell us your kit can be fitted to any enclosure that it will properly fit into.  An rse covering exercise no doubt, but one many on here will feel is essential.  Some on here will look upon us as cowboys if we fir the "wrong" bit of kit into a CU.

 

[SBS Dave]

Hi Dave,

Please don't apologise for the structure of your post, but I am sure you know I would prefer constructive opinions, rather than Devil's Advocacy.

In the last 3 years, I have been defending my position and in so doing, defending the position of every other supplier of separate devices, with regard to interpretation of BSEN60439. I have challenged BEAMA in writing on this and they have not responded. I have challenged various other bodies and publications in writing, who just put BEAMA's views forward, without expressing opinions of their own. None have responded to me. I have had  NAPIT Forum battles on the subject, with posters quoting what BEAMA says we can't do, but neither of them suggesting a solution to the mix and match actions we take, as Competent Persons, to get the job done and the customer happy. I have asked a TEF member on this very topic to elaborate on comments about Type Testing, but have had no response. I have just sent a response to NAPIT's Ask Eddie on this subject, with Just Eddie giving me BEAMA's view, even though he admits that mix and match is what Competent Persons do, in order to provide the service to their customers. To my knowledge, no other Supplier of enclosures and separate devices mentioned and/or used on this Forum or NAPIT's, has been asked to provide a Certificate of Compliance. I am not sure I want to do that, simply to satisfy those voiceless members who may think the rest of us are cowboys.

However, I am happy to put my money where my mouth is and attach a copy of my Certificate of Compliance, if that is to be a condition of my Sponsorship, or if that is the collective view of the membership. Presumably, it will lead to people stopping buying RCBOs from my competitors, unless they too issue written assurances. One thing is for certain, I am not going to put any more effort into this battle, in order for my competitors to reap the benefit.

Incidentally, in compliance with Reg. 134, I have just read the MK instructions for the enclosures I sell and there is no mention of problems with mix and match. This means that if I install other devices in it, it still, technically, doesn't invalidate their warranty. Reg 510, says we should "take account of manufacturer's instructions", which is vastly different from "we must follow manufacturer's instructions".

I await comments and opinions.

SBS Dave

 

[wozz]

Neutral and earth bars with two screws! what a good idea, why has no one thought of that already! 

A step in the right direction.   

 

[SBS Dave]

Hi Wozz,

Thanks for noticing that, as it was one of the few affordable changes I managed to get, from the standard range of boxes.

The 2-screw terminals are particularly good for the multi-strand RCBO neutral leads and the very small earth leads.

To be honest, I recommend bunching together 2,3,4 or even 5 thin earth leads together, in order to ensure good contact.

David

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

One point i would bring up  if asked by a manufacturer, Why are the breakers cable terminations made so shallow, you have only  a few MM in some cases and if using larger cables when bending them bare copper is seen adjacent to the breaker. Are yours deeper and is there any sort of shroud or shoulder around the cable entry to the breakers ?

I suppose some people will say you should not be working on a live board so what does it matter.

 

[Maplasterelec]

I use the compact rcbo's 99% of the time now. Board looks neater, quicker to install and is a better product in my opinion.

It is pricier than screwfix's spli load boards, but I you sell the product correctly the customer goes for it all the time

Matt

 

[SBS Dave]

Hi Slipshod,

There is a strip-gauge on the RCBO, telling you that the overall depth is 11.5mm. If you strip the cable at 9mm, the insulation should enter the terminal up to the metal and be shrouded by the plastic body. Obviously, bending the cable, effectively increases the stripped length and the larger the cable, the more the bare conductor is exposed.

Hi Maplasterelec, (Matt)

Didn't know you we're a TEF member, but I am glad you have decided to give me some support.

By the way, I can confirm I received your e-mail order at 7.51pm last night. I am now heading down to the PO to ship your 10-way Compact RCBO board.

Regards

David

 

[Maplasterelec]

Thanks Dave, I will be ordering another this coming week too, can't get enough of them round here!!!

Matt