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middle age spark

Neutral earth fault

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middle age spark

Hi all,

 

What's the concensus on these faults, serious or not,would you remove the affected circuit from the rcbo & replace it with a retro fit mcb.

I work with a electrician who keeps doing this on call & it's driving me mad I keep telling him he has to isolate the affected leg &leave the rcbo in place for additional protection but he continues to ignore my advice.

What regulation is he breaking,I've got the electricity at work act as one

I've looked at the regs book but can't find anything which will back me up.

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Risteard

Potentially very dangerous indeed.

 

I've come across cases where a neutral/Earth fault existed and the neutral tail was disconnected from the meter, resulting in the entire installation's load returning through the neutral/Earth fault on a 1.5mm^2 cable causing melting and arcing and a real and immediate fire hazard.

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Geoff1946

Is this a serious question or a wind up?

My first thought would be an offence under H&SAW for interfering with equipment provided for safety in removing the RCBO.

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middle age spark

No straight up he even tries to justify what he does

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middle age spark
13 minutes ago, Risteard said:

Potentially very dangerous indeed.

 

I've come across cases where a neutral/Earth fault existed and the neutral tail was disconnected from the meter, resulting in the entire installation's load returning through the neutral/Earth fault on a 1.5mm^2 cable causing melting and arcing and a real and immediate fire hazard.

Ive been to two fires caused by n-e faults thats why i know how serious it is but im after regs,ive only got elec at work compliance,ive spoken to the nic & they said thats enough but i want reg no aswell

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Andy™

there is no justifying removing protective devices because you too lazy to find / fix or isolate the fault

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Murdoch

Do you both work for the same employer?

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middle age spark
14 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

Do you both work for the same employer?

Unfortunatly yes

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Murdoch

You have posted about this on another me thinks

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Tony S

A N→E fault is as equally as dangerous as any other fault that can cause overheating due to overload. A SP RCBO can’t clear a N→E fault leaving the fault able to cause mayhem.

 

A SP+SwN or DP RCBO will clear a N→E fault. I haven’t seen the 18th yet but I was hoping this issue would have been addressed.

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Doc Hudson
1 hour ago, middle age spark said:

Ive been to two fires caused by n-e faults thats why i know how serious it is but im after regs,ive only got elec at work compliance,ive spoken to the nic & they said thats enough but i want reg no aswell

 

I would have thought to trip a 30ma RCD you must be talking of 7666ohms or less with respect to earth. So how is you installation complying with its minimum insulation resistance values as per 612.3.2.  And how come you seem to have forgotten the basic tests to verify the integrity of a circuit?   (don't forget the definitions of a live part includes the neutral conductor, and it should be treated no differently to any other live part)

 

Doc H.   

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middle age spark
33 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

You have posted about this on another me thinks

Yes

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Murdoch

You have a simple  choice,

 

report him

 

Keep quiet and do nothing

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SPECIAL LOCATION
3 hours ago, middle age spark said:

Hi all,

 

What's the concensus on these faults, serious or not,would you remove the affected circuit from the rcbo & replace it with a retro fit mcb.

I work with a electrician who keeps doing this on call & it's driving me mad I keep telling him he has to isolate the affected leg &leave the rcbo in place for additional protection but he continues to ignore my advice.

What regulation is he breaking,I've got the electricity at work act as one

I've looked at the regs book but can't find anything which will back me up.

 

Concensus  erm……….?

 

Any faults...  Fix the fault, return installation back to full operation with correct overload and shock protection as needed by BS7671.

 

or...………..

1/  If you are his superior/manager/boss...  deal with it!

 

2/   If he is your superior/manager/boss...  report your concerns via the appropriate channels....

Let them sort it, as it is their responsibility and liability if anything goes pear-shaped!!

 

What other options are there, to concensus about??

 

:popcorn

 

 

 

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binky

if you are being paid to fix a fault, and fail to do this, then I would argue you fail your 'duty of care' to the customer to ensure the electrical system is safe to use

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middle age spark

Thanks for the replies i know what I'm dealing with at the moment & it's being done but I can't find bs7671 regs to throw in the mix for when I get a recall to come back to the meeting..any ideas will be appreciated. 

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Andy™

134.1.1

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Sidney

I doubt you will find anything specific in BS7671 as it is too generic for this scenario.

 

You could use several parts of Chapter 13 as this cover general rules such as good workmanship.   Andy has already mentioned 134.1.1.

 

Also look a design, 132, as he has gone against the installation design without consulting the designer.

 

132.16 additions and alterations to an installation.

 

133.4 prevention of harmful effects refers to chapter 33 for examples.

 

If he has not reported his alterations on a certificate you could also refer to chapter 63.

 

 

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Murdoch

What do his certificates say?

Edited by Murdoch

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middle age spark
Just now, Murdoch said:

What do his certificates say?

Didn't do one on his device but when we asked why you haven't filled on in,miraculously he's got a paperwork one with figures close to the recall tech's results 

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Murdoch
2 minutes ago, middle age spark said:

Didn't do one on his device but when we asked why you haven't filled on in,miraculously he's got a paperwork one with figures close to the recall tech's results 

 

Whats the justification for removing the rcds and fitting the mcb?

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middle age spark
20 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

 

Whats the justification for removing the rcds and fitting the mcb?

He Attended a neutral earth fault &couldn't be arsed to find it,just put a follow up back & that's how I found him out by the recall tech reporting it to me

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Tony S

So you know one of your colleagues is putting people at risk. Do you not think you have a duty of care to your company’s clients?

 

If something goes tragically wrong you will also be carrying the can. The balls in your court, what do you want to do?

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Evans Electric

I had a foreman similar to that years ago .   He'd go out to a breakdown on a control circuit say.......    put a 2BA  screw in place of the control circuit transformer  fuse  , sun to the fault ,  transformer melts ...back to office  ,order a new one  then make sure  I was sent with it and I'd end up having to  trace the fault  ,  while he said stuff like  " Dunno why he's so long , its only replace the transformer  ...I've been and sorted it once "      

 

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middle age spark
34 minutes ago, Tony S said:

So you know one of your colleagues is putting people at risk. Do you not think you have a duty of care to your company’s clients?

 

If something goes tragically wrong you will also be carrying the can. The balls in your court, what do you want to do?

 

11 minutes ago, Evans Electric said:

I had a foreman similar to that years ago .   He'd go out to a breakdown on a control circuit say.......    put a 2BA  screw in place of the control circuit transformer  fuse  , sun to the fault ,  transformer melts ...back to office  ,order a new one  then make sure  I was sent with it and I'd end up having to  trace the fault  ,  while he said stuff like  " Dunno why he's so long , its only replace the transformer  ...I've been and sorted it once "      

 

Already started a disaplinary I'm just after the finishing touches,I can't find anymore bs7671 regs to throw in the mix..also totally agree with you 

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